Matt and Sean talk about more pulp, but not as well aged, in Star Trek TOS Season 3, Episode 17, “That Which Survives.”
Chapters:
- 00:00: Time Code and Chapters
- 03:13: Today’s Episode
- 03:38: This time in History
- 08:53: Today’s Discusion
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Chapters
• 0:00: Intro
• 3:24: Today's episode
• 6:40: This time in history
• 9:55: Episode discussion
Transcript
Sean Ferrell: Today on Trek in Time, we're going to be talking about another big pulpy premise. We're going to talk about a fast forward button on character relationships and also how stuck in sexism one of the show's feet seems to be a little sad. Anyway, today on Trek in Time, we're going to be talking about that which survives from the original series, season three. Welcome everybody to Trek in Time. This is the podcast that takes a look at all of Star Trek in chronological stardate order. And here we are just about halfway through season three, which means we are a mere couple of months probably away from taking a look at the movies and then moving forward into. That's right, Matt. I know you can't wait. Next Generation.
Matt Ferrell: I'm very excited.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah. And who are we? Well, I'm Sean Ferrell. I'm a writer. I write some sci fi, I write some horror, I write some stuff for kids. And with me, as always, is my brother Matt. He is that Matt behind Undecided with Matt Ferrell, which takes a look at emerging tech and its impact in our lives. And Matt, how are you today?
Matt Ferrell: I'm good, but I gotta say, Sean little behind the scenes here. We've been recording for a while and my studio is getting hot. It is hot in here.
Sean Ferrell: That explains why you're looking a little bit like Scotty from today'. Little. Little trapped, a little wired, a little
Matt Ferrell: angry, a little jumpy.
Sean Ferrell: Little jumpy, yeah. We'll get into that in a moment when we talk about that which survives. But first we're going to take a look at some other things. Normally we'd be talking about comments, wouldn't we, Matt? But not today. Normally we'd be like, I'd be throwing to Matt saying like, hey, we like to go to the mailbag and see what you had to say. I will not pretend to understand what is happening. Matt gave me a kind of like thumbnail version. He's like, hey, when we talk, talk to the audience about this in this way. I'm not going to do that. I nodded as he said all of that. I was just like, that makes sense. Okay. Yep, I'll do that. Yep. Here's what I know. Matt and I have a recording schedule that has been thrown off recently by. I was very sick for about a two week period. There's travel arrangements. Matt's going to be traveling, I'm going to be traveling. Somehow this has thrown the schedule into a place where videos are dropping and we are recording, but we don't yet have comments because what you're going to see in your future. Our past are somehow overlapping each other. Dr. All of that is to say we have timey wimey problems. We don't have any comments for you this week. So that's not to say we're moving away from sharing comments, it's just that right now we don't have any comments to share. So with all of that exhaustion behind us, we will move now back into our usual programming track. Yes, those flashing lights. Yes, those klaxon alarms, they can only mean one thing. It is time for Matt to tackle the Wikipedia description. Take it away, Matt.
Matt Ferrell: The crew of the Enterprise visits an abandoned outpost guarded by a mysterious computer.
Sean Ferrell: If that sounds like a half dozen Star Trek the Original Series episodes, you're not wrong. Yes, here we are on January 24th. Matt, we did it. 1969. Woo. The future. This episode dropped. This is the 69th episode produced. The 72nd aired overall. The 17th episode of the third season. That which Survives Directed by Herb Wallace Wallerstein Story by DC Fontana Teleplay by by John Meredith Lucas originally broadcast on January 24, 1969 and the world at the time of original broadcast well, I've in our show notes, Matt and I have a document of show notes. I have kept hey Jude and Funny Girl in the show notes despite the fact they are not involved this week simply because I know we are going to be traveling back in time, back into 1968 in the future where those two things still lurk. So they're still in the show notes, Matt. But don't be confused. The number one song this week in early 1969, I heard it through the Grapevine by Marvin Gaye. This is of course his cover of a song that has been covered multiple times by different artists, but he held the number one spot for a couple of weeks in early January of 69. And Matt, I will admit to becoming strangely giddily happy when I saw the number one film bullet with Steve McQueen, one of my all time favorite films. We just had a conversation in which I referenced oh, films where they used to show people shopping for broccoli. This was the movie I was thinking about. Love this movie. Love Steve McQueen. That's all I'll say about it.
And on television because we've visited the Friday night lineup and we've talked about all of the programs that aired on Friday nights in and around the Star Trek window when they held the 10 o' clock slot on Friday evenings, I, for the entry into 1969 decided that we would look big picture at the top programs of the year 1969, as opposed to drilling down into specific evenings or time slots. And what that means is the number one program for 1969, the most popular program of that year was Roan and Martin's Laugh. And this is a program that remained in the top slot for a number of years. And it, of course, is the sketch comedy program, which was effectively a major precursor, along with programs like the Smothers Brothers and the and other programming of the era that led to the emergence of Saturday Night Live. So the DNA of laughing is very similar to the DNA of SNL as we know it today. And in the news, here we are, 1969. We've left the elections of 1968 behind us. We've actually had the inauguration so that we have a little man named Richard Nixon as president. The headlines on this day included a couple of stories about a shooting in Moscow, a number of changes in the US Government as far as, like, Senate confirmations and putting together the cabinet. And on the far left column, a little article. Nothing really like major headline grabbing on the newspaper on this day, but a headline, Nixon Names Aid to help oversee domestic affairs, Nixon had selected Dr. Arthur F. Burns of Columbia as a counselor, a post of cabinet rank. How nice for Arthur F. Burns. And just in case anybody was curious why, yes, as a matter of fact, there was a Watergate connection.
It was that eventually this gentleman, yeah, he would go on to become the head of the Fed and in that role, as there were questions about where was the money that the Nixon Election Committee was getting to pay off people and bribes and the slush fund that they had. One of the clues in the Watergate scandal was that all of the bills had sequential serial numbers, meaning that they were packets of money that would have come directly from a bank. And so there was an investigation, Part of the congressional investigation into this included what was the source of this money and this gentleman, Mr. Burns, Dr. Burns. I don't want to take away his position, Dr. Burns, in his role at the head of the Fed, well, he would help stonewall the investigation a bit. It tarnished his reputation, and eventually he would step down in some disgrace. So, yeah, early 1969, brand new presidency. But I thought it would be fun to look through the looking glass at what the future would hold only about four years later on. Now to our discussion about this episode, that which survives. We talked last week, Matt, about pulpiness in Star Trek and a kind of like, I really appreciated last week's episode for its pulpiness. I liked the fact that it was Reminiscent of some of those, like, Big Idea Sci Fi, where it was somewhat absurd. Kind of like the point was the idea as opposed to something else underlying the characters or deeper explanations of science. And I found as I was watching this one, I found myself very much in similar terrain. There's a little bit of a difference. There's a nuance here that I do want to explore later, having to do with characterization.
But did you find yourself similarly, like, reminiscing about the same things where, as you were watching this, when were you finding yourself thinking like, oh, this is kind of of a theme with last week's episode?
Matt Ferrell: It is. But for me, there's something a little different. This one didn't feel as like you talk about pulp. How last week was kind of like a pulpy theme. This didn't feel like a pulpy theme to me. This just felt like classic Trek. And I forgot that this was written by D.C. fontana. And that's when I was like, oh, oh. That's why this episode is one of my favorites. I don't know if you liked it as much as I did. I don't remember watching this the last time I saw this. I know I've seen it before, but a lot of it felt very fresh to me. I remembered little pieces here and there, but clearly this is an episode I've only seen maybe once or twice in my life. I loved this episode, Sean. I loved. I. I loved this episode. It was so good for the character development. It was so good for, like, the sci fi aspect was just enough to wet my sci fi whistle of, like, I want them to talk technobabble to me. Oh, yeah, keep going, keep going. They did enough technobabble, but not too much. They had this really cool effect of the woman folding in like that. Like some kind of parallel universey thing going on where she could teleport all over the place. Eating it up.
Sean Ferrell: Loving it.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, more of this. So for me, Sean, this episode was a slam dunk. And it does feel like a theme from last week in the sense of, I don't remember season three having so many good episodes in it, but this season has some really bad ones. But it also has some of the ones I would have said to you, oh, that's gotta be a first season, or that's gotta be a second season. I'm really shocked that they're in the third season.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah. I found myself in similar terrain where it was. I can't help but think if some of the energy of an episode like this one hooks into me as A oh, it must be earlier in the series because it's effectively more polished. Which is then it's an irony that like, oh, it's because that this isn't their first go at doing this. They're in season three. They all know their characters. There's a little bit more looseness in the acting around this one in particular, for me, I agree with you. The pulp of the sci fi concept is where the pulp lives in this one. It's this. It's a super sophisticated computer that is trying to do a thing that no longer logically makes sense. It's going through motions that it doesn't even quite understand. The idea that the computer did such a good job of replicating this actual person and that she's even conflicted. Great. Like all of that. I love it. That's so pulpy. And I loved all of that. As you mentioned, the sci fi ness of it. They go to this planet because it shouldn't be. The sci fi ness of the hard tech of the planet isn't old enough. It doesn't have the right mass. This kind of planet shouldn't have generated in the way it did. And we are uncertain of how it could be and everything they do on the planet of it. It was like last week's where I was like, I love the scene where you just have nerds being nerds on the planet doing nerd things. They do that here where it's just like, I'm gonna walk around with my thing and I'm gonna measure the atmosphere. Felt bad for Sulu at the beginning because every idea as Shatner's Kirk is basically shut up. It's just left and right. Like Sulu, stop it. And Sulu. Yeah, but Sulu's out doing the science y thing. Dr. McCoy's out there doing the science Y thing. You end up with a non red shirt. I find myself on this. Watch through with you.
Like, where did the mythology of the red shirt always dies come from? Because it doesn't happen all that many times. It really doesn't. Like there's not that many red shirts. And in this one you get a nice. Like, I'm a science guy. I'm a middle aged science guy and I can't wait to go down to this planet and do some science because cool. And nothing's adding up. They shoot the phasers at the, at the rock. And like that shouldn't have done what it did. Like how's. What is this rock? This is not rock. And Sulu having to be like, it's a polymer that's been created and they create, like, could it be hollow? Like, all these questions. Really cool, hard sci fi mixed with a pulpy kind of actiony drama. I agree with you. The special effect of the woman folding is one of my favorite, favorite memories of Star Trek, similar to last week when they phased into the faster timeline. I loved the effect of that. So. And in this one, you get also the advantage of just great singing, the choral music that accompanies it. It's so weird. It's so spooky. But for me, the standout here, this felt like somebody in the back. It feels like DC Fontana walked in and was just like, did anybody bother pushing this? Move the characterization button? And everybody's like, I forgot we had that. And she went, boop.
And suddenly Spock is outspoking Spock from the previous two and a half seasons.
Matt Ferrell: Suddenly it felt like Scotty is out Scottying people.
Sean Ferrell: Scotty is out Scottying. Kirk is out Kirking Sulu Uhura. It's. Suddenly Uhura's walking around just being like, hey, Spock, can we talk a bit about what's going on? Because she's the only main character on the bridge other than Spock. So they give her all these great scenes where it's just. She's like, hey, Spock, I think we got to talk about what's going on. The fact that Spock is left and right being like, you humans and your logic, but he's doing it with a kind of wink at them. And they are all taking it full on the chin and grinding their teeth and just being like, oh, Spock, am I right? And I'm like, this is fantastic, everybody. Everything about that, the characterization feels like it's from a season six that never existed. It felt like a late Next Generation episode to me. They all know each other and know their characters so well, and it really just keeps coming through. I loved it. I loved it.
Matt Ferrell: Not even just that, Sean. There was the characters that barely spoke a word. There was the woman at the helm.
Sean Ferrell: Yes.
Matt Ferrell: The black engineer. And, like, it was like, Dr. Mimbenga. It's like the show almost forgot for two seasons. Yes.
Sean Ferrell: It. It's like the.
Matt Ferrell: It's like. It's like the show forgot. Oh, we're trying to push the society forward. This utopian ideal where color and race and all that stuff doesn't matter where. For a long time, it was like, anytime Sulu wasn't on the bridge, it was some white dude, you know, I mean, it was always as a white dude that was always, like, on the bridge. This is the most diverse the bridges looks like in a long time. This is the most diverse the engineering section has looked. And it really, like, ever. It was just D.C. fontana comes in and suddenly it's like, yeah, this. This is Star Trek. The characters out, charactering themselves.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: And, like, you're right. It was them pushing themselves forward. And in my notes, I had great character interactions. I had Bones, Kirk, Sulu, Spock, Scotty Uhura.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: It's like what they did with all those characters was just wonderful. Especially Scotty. Like, Scotty. The whole dialogue between Scotty and Spock, where he's in the. Like, it's not the Jeffries, too, but he's in that thing where he's doing his stuff with a little wrench and he's describing what he's seeing. And Spock's like, just do it. Like, stop painting a picture and just do it. I thought it was so funny to have Spock doing that. Getting irritated that Scotty's. You got no time, man. Why are you blathering about. About this stuff? But Scotty, as he's talking, is doing stuff.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: So it's just funny to see these two characters who clearly know each other so well, the way they react to each other, know how to push each other's buttons and do things in certain ways. Just a wonderful character dynamic that we know from the movies super well, but has been, like, absent in the show up until this point.
Sean Ferrell: It's like, in that sequence, every conversation leading up to that point is when Spock first proposes, well, what if we go into that tube and we can cut off the fuel supply at that junction? And Scotty is just like, you're insane. Like, you go in there, you're gonna. You. You're gonna blow up the ship. You're at least gonna kill the person who tries to do that. And, like, what lunatic are you gonna get to send in there? And Spock says, well, I'll do it. And Scotty immediately is like, no, no, I'll do it. And does it in a kind of eye rolling, like, no, no, no, I'll do it. I'm familiar with it. Like, I'll go take care of it. I will do that. And it's all because logic dictates that we do what has to be done. That Spock, throughout the entire episode, logic is dictating what has to be done. And without anybody saying a single word, when it comes to the final, logic is dictating what has to be done. Spock doesn't do it. Scotty is like, eject me into space. Get me out of here. I'm like, the tool is stuck. I'm not going to be able to do this. You got to eject everything into space, otherwise you're all going to die. You got to let me go. The countdown is over. The woman at the helm is just like. And zero. They all look at Spock and Spock is just like, he's not going to do it. He's not going to do it. He's like, when the helms. The helms woman says, I will eject it as soon as it hits the countdown. And he's like, no, you'll wait till my signal. He's not going to do it. He's going to blow up the ship instead of ejecting Scotty. It's that moment of his. Humanity doesn't even get a sentence. Nobody says, like, oh, Spock, you held on even though you knew it might cost the ship. It didn't have that kind of boop a doop a doo ending at all. It was just like, we did what we had to do and it was like, I thought it was brilliant. I thought it was brilliant.
And Scotty's, like, muttering under his breath when he's in that tube and he's just like, I don't need a bloody countdown. Like, like all the little asides, there's this constant, like, commentary from people. When you get the. The scientist, the. The geologist who goes down to the planet, he's given an opportunity to show, like, he knows his stuff. He's a hero because he knows his stuff. The engineer who's working with Scotty, who, when he finds a strange woman and she asks, like, could you tell me about this panel? And he gives an answer and she's like, wise of you to lie to me. I know you're lying to me. That's not what this actually is. I was just like, you go, guy. He's a hero, too. He's like. When he starts to answer what it is, I thought, I'm like, come on, Guy, you don't know who this woman is. Why are you doing this? Oh, my God, he lied to her. Fantastic. Everybody's given a chance. Everybody's given a chance.
Matt Ferrell: Competent, competent people being competent. That's my favorite Star Trek. It's just like, Next Generation does this in spades. It's like, there'll be some story going on, and every character that has a moment shows why they're there. Like, they have a reason for being. They're the best at what they do for that specific role. And you see this in this episode, even with these tiny characters, these know nothing characters even have those moments of competence and brilliance. I thought this, Sean, this episode, I'm serious, is one of my favorite Star Trek episodes of the original series that we've watched.
Sean Ferrell: Completely agree. The one nitpick for me was the sexism stuff. I was just like, oh, you almost had a perfect home run. You almost had. And it just, the ball just died. Barely hits the outside fence and bounces back into play. It's just barely. It's the smallest amount, but it is literally like, how can such evil exist in such beauty? And like, oh my God, really?
Matt Ferrell: The actual quote, the actual quote, I, I wrote it down was Sulu saying, how can she be so evil? She's so beautiful. And then it cuts to Kirk and he goes, I know, like, what's, what is happening?
Sean Ferrell: Like, what is happening? And at the end, entire takeaway, the literal title, that which survives is beauty a reference to her beauty. No, Spock, I think you're wrong because beauty survives. And just like, dude, like, this is. This is Captain, Captain Zapp Brannigan territory Gift tell the men I've had sex with a woman. Like, come on, dudes. Like, you were almost there. You were almost there.
Matt Ferrell: Like, how could she, when he said that?
Sean Ferrell: Like, they're not saying things like, how can she keep returning and disappearing so quickly? There must be a location of, of some sort of teleportation device or a projector in some way that is helping her do this. No, they're just like, how can she possibly be that hot and dangerous?
Matt Ferrell: Like, okay, at the end when, when they said was like, she was remarkable and beautiful and beauty survives, I in my head heard a sad TR playing in the background.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah, yeah. It's a little bit like the, the sad trombone combines with the Star Trek theme at that moment. But I still give it an A. I still like, I like.
Matt Ferrell: It is.
Sean Ferrell: It is a minor thing in a really good episode. The way I can digest it is to say, like, it is a program from 1969. It is.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: Like it's 1969. Yeah. Beat it with a stick until it doesn't move anymore. Like, get that kind of, get that kind of reference out of our programs in general, but get it out of Star Trek in particular. Like, come on, you're trying to be progressive. Be progressive. Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: So the one last character, Sean, I gotta call out, he didn't have a line, but he was a hero in my Heart. And when he did his action, I was like, you go, buddy. It was when Kirk And Sulu and McCoy are getting cornered by the three versions and Spock and this no name guy come in.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: And Kirk yells out, spock, destroy the computer. And the guy with that missing beat just goes, pew. That was like. You go, he was talking to Spock, not you. But you did it. You had the gun. You went and did it.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: And then.
Sean Ferrell: And then after he shoots it, they cut back to Spock and that guy. And that guy is standing there holding the gun like he's never held a phaser before in his life. And he turns to look over at where Kirk is supposed to be, just like, did I do it? Like, whose brother in law was on stage that day where they were just like, hey, Gary, do you want to be in the episode? He was just like, okay, he's a
Matt Ferrell: little out of shape. He's just kind of like, yes, boo.
Sean Ferrell: And then he stands and just like, did I win it? Did I win Star Trek? Yeah, he was great too. Make an action figure of that guy.
Matt Ferrell: He's just in that pose. It's him shooting his guy.
Sean Ferrell: Have a button on his back that you push the button and he just goes, loved it. Yeah, good episode. Like, I keep wanting to go back and just talk more about like, everybody gets their moments. Lots of good Sulu conversations in this one. It's unfortunate that he does kind of get like multiple times. It's a little bit like Kirk is just like whipping him in the forehead when he talks. Just like, what if it was this? And he's just like, shut up with your speculating. It's like, let the man talk. But even with that, at least he's like, he's in it. He's in the mix of everything. And he gets that nice moment where he confronts the projection of the woman. When she shows up, he's like, nobody gets stupidly tricked. It is like a nice point of this one that there is none of the illogic of, wait a minute, somebody shows up who shouldn't be here. And the response is somebody doing something that makes no sense just so that there can be a death or a threat. This one, everybody, when they're confronted with a threat, responds appropriately. Especially when it's like, hold on, how are you even here? It's like, I'm trying to keep my distance from that. Sulu does a great job with that. I like McCoy's involvement in the sciencing around and trying to figure out like all I'm seeing is toxicity here. I'm seeing toxicity in these things and one microbial organism. But there's nothing else that's at work here. You get some nice moments with him, especially when Sulu is injured and he's able to help doctor him back into action. And Shatner does like. We're seeing the emergence of the cliched Kirk at this point. We're seeing a lot of the sudden, enthusiastic reactions to threat and pain.
The episode does have a rather jarring and funny moment around the earthquake, which feels a little bit like they were like, okay, everybody get onto the waterbed and we're gonna film you having an earthquake. And then they were just moving the waterbed up and down because everybody's just kind of like. And the. The walls are literally waving. But even with that, I'm just like, everybody's getting their moment. And I just really, really wanted to call that out as, like, that it's such a polish to it that, like I said, it feels like a later episode, later season Next Generation episode to me. Which makes sense, considering DC Fontana helps shape Next Gen at the beginning of its run. So, viewers, listeners, how do you feel about this one? Did you enjoy it as much as Matt and I did? I feel like all we did was gush about it, like, yeah, we did. This was terrific. But, like, did you all enjoy it as much as we did? Jump into the comments. Let us know. As always, commenting, liking subscribing, sharing with your friends, easy ways for you to support the podcast. You want to support us more directly. Trekintime show, click the join button there. Not only does that allow you to throw coins at our heads, it will sign you up as an Ensign, which means you'll be signed up for our spin off program, out of Time, in which we talk about things that don't fit within the confines of this program. We hope you'll be interested in checking that out.
Thank you, everybody, as always, for taking the time to watch or listen, and we'll talk to you next time.